Former Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer has finally spoken out about his last few years at the software giant. In an interview with Bloomberg TV, Ballmer recounts his history at Microsoft and his relationship with Bill Gates over the year, and also blames Surface hardware and phones for the pair falling out.

“When I became CEO we had a very miserable year,” admits Ballmer. “Bill didn’t know how to work for anybody, and I didn’t know how to manage Bill. I’m not sure I ever learned the latter.” Ballmer says his life “changed a lot” in 2008 when Bill Gates left the company. Ballmer said he did some of his “very best work” after Gates left, citing Bing, Office 365, Microsoft Azure, and the company’s push into the hardware business with Surface.

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